Get Support NVIDIA #GeForce Forums

zone74

User

141

Total Comments

Total Topics

141 Comments 7 Topics

I recently did a clean install of every version of Windows 10 to compare Windowed-Mode G-Sync performance. All versions of Windows 10, except for 1709, behave the same: which is to say that Windowed-Mode G-Sync is not nearly as good as Full-Screen G-Sync. There's a lot more variance in reported refresh rate, and games stutter noticeably at times. The difference with 1709 is that Full-Screen Optimizations worked differently, and Full-Screen Windowed/Borderless games were also upgraded to bypass the DWM (DirectFlip). In 1703/1803/1809/1903 only Full-Screen Exclusive games have FSO applied. So it's not that Windowed-Mode G-Sync actually got worse - it's that Microsoft changed the behavior of FSO with 1709 but reverted it in newer versions. While it was great when it was working, 1709 also had issues where games would randomly be locked to 24 FPS, which would only be fixed by alt-tabbing a number of times or restarting the game. I suspect this is why the change was reverted. If you use Kaldaien's Special K modding tool, you can force some games to use DirectFlip in windowed-mode, which has the same perfect G-Sync behavior as 1709 - because it bypasses the DWM and behaves like an exclusive application as far as G-Sync is concerned. I don't even have Windowed-Mode enabled on my system any more. I leave it set to Full-Screen only, as the Windowed-Mode operation is not acceptable to me. I'll either mod the game to use DirectFlip where possible, or run it in FSE Mode now.

My system updated to 1809, and it has the same issues as 1803. Windowed-mode G-Sync activates (though not in every game, it seems) but still suffers from bad variance in the display's refresh rate, even if the frame rate is constant. Full-screen Exclusive G-Sync works as expected, but is inconvenient to use (slow alt-tab) and is not available in every game.

Hexaae said:Finally fixed (416.81 WHQL), mouse movements won't cause windowed g-sync desync anymore.
They fixed one issue, but Windowed G-Sync itself is still not working correctly - at least not on 1803. Quantum Break (Steam Version) and Dead Cells are the two games I've been using to check this and both still show large refresh rate fluctuations and bad stuttering in windowed mode.

RodriGlez said:G-Sync (Fullscreen and Windowed) works as intended on 391.35.
Only if you are running Windows 10 1709. There are still issues with this driver on 1803/1809, it's just not quite as bad as anything using WDDM 2.4 or 2.5.

Sora said:
zone74 said:
ManuelGuzmanNV said:Issues and updates: -Random DPC watchdog violation error when using multiple GPUs on motherboards with PLX chips -> Use the following tool to enable MSI mode as a temporary workaround (only apply changes to each NVIDIA GPU installed): https://github.com/CHEF-KOCH/MSI-utility/releases
This doesn't seem to be limited to multi-GPU setups on motherboards that use PLX chips. I've been getting DPC Watchdog Violation errors every 2-3 days on 411.70 with a single ASUS 1070 Strix and an ASUS Crosshair VI Hero motherboard (using a Ryzen 1700X with ECC memory).
It is only multigpu plx setups, anyone else getting it has an unrelated issue with either the mainboard or graphics card defective.
Sure, that's why it's only been happening on this new driver branch and using the MSI Utility to enable MSI mode, or using an older driver version fixes it. It couldn't be that the scope of this issue is larger than expected. Definitely not that.

ManuelGuzmanNV said:Issues and updates: -Random DPC watchdog violation error when using multiple GPUs on motherboards with PLX chips -> Use the following tool to enable MSI mode as a temporary workaround (only apply changes to each NVIDIA GPU installed): https://github.com/CHEF-KOCH/MSI-utility/releases
This doesn't seem to be limited to multi-GPU setups on motherboards that use PLX chips. I've been getting DPC Watchdog Violation errors every 2-3 days on 411.70 with a single ASUS 1070 Strix and an ASUS Crosshair VI Hero motherboard (using a Ryzen 1700X with ECC memory).

Arokhantos said:
zone74 said:
Arokhantos said:Gsync windowed is out of sync, if you limit fps to 60 in game for example and move cursor and turn on refresh rate number on monitor osd it go's out of sync [...]
That's nothing new. It's always done this in windowed mode if the game uses a Hardware Cursor. If the game has an option to disable the Hardware Cursor, that should fix it. If not, you will have to use Exclusive Mode.
Nothing to do with hardware cursor heck it i can reproduce it in pretty much every game more or less
Play a game which has the option to toggle the Hardware Cursor on/off. You will only see this behavior when the Hardware Cursor is enabled. G-Sync is fundamentally incompatible with the way that the Hardware Cursor is rendered. Hardware Cursor means that the cursor is updated at the display's refresh rate regardless of the game's framerate. Since G-Sync synchronizes the refresh rate to the framerate, it breaks Hardware Cursor functionality. In Full-Screen Exclusive Mode G-Sync is able to sync the refresh rate to the game's framerate whether Hardware Cursor is enabled or disabled, but doing so renders it useless. In Borderless/Windowed Mode enabling the Hardware Cursor has always caused stuttering and erratic refresh rates in games because the two are conflicting with one another. You will not see this on D3D12 or games which use Full-Screen Optimizations because they use a presentation mode that behaves like Full-Screen Exclusive Mode as far as G-Sync is concerned (bypasses DWM).

Ervin said:Any feedback on 399.07?
Still broken.
Xungo said:Guys, I found out that gsync windowed is not working properly only on DX11 games. On World of Warcraft gsync doesn't trigger if you are playing on DX11 but if you change to DX12 it works fine. But games like The Witness and The Long Dark wich are native DX11 and don't give you the option to change still have gsync broken. Still waiting for a fix to continue playing The Witness. Ã§.Ã§
D3D12 games use the same presentation mode as games that support Full-Screen Optimizations, so they bypass the compositor and are running in Full-Screen Exclusive Mode as far as G-Sync is concerned. The official list of games is here, but it has not been updated in a long time, and I think more than that are supported now: https://forums.xbox.com/en-us/thread/8d058178-2329-4513-bc0a-1506c2942dad

Windowed-Mode G-Sync is still broken in this driver. The driver does enable the use of Windowed-Mode G-Sync, but it does not sync correctly. There are large refresh rate fluctuations (Â±10 Hz or more) and stuttering in Windowed-Mode. The 'Turbo' button on my ASUS PG348Q still does nothing with this driver, so many games are stuck at 60 Hz rather than the display's maximum refresh rate. Here is a video showing G-Sync behavior in the Dead Cells menus, in both Full-Screen Exclusive and Full-Screen Windowed Mode. The game is capped to 95 FPS using RTSS. Monitor stats displayed top-right, Afterburner/RTSS stats displayed bottom-right. Full-Screen Exclusive: Â±1 Hz. Full-Screen Windowed: Â±10 Hz; bad stuttering.
Arokhantos said:Gsync windowed is out of sync, if you limit fps to 60 in game for example and move cursor and turn on refresh rate number on monitor osd it go's out of sync [...]
That's nothing new. It's always done this in windowed mode if the game uses a Hardware Cursor. If the game has an option to disable the Hardware Cursor, that should fix it. If not, you will have to use Exclusive Mode.

This driver enables Windowed-Mode G-Sync again. Windowed-Mode G-Sync is still broken with large refresh rate fluctuations (Â±10 Hz or more) and stuttering. The 'Turbo' button on my ASUS PG348Q still does nothing with this driver, so many games are stuck at 60 Hz. Here is a video showing the Dead Cells menus in Full-Screen Exclusive and Full-Screen Windowed Mode. The game is capped to 95 FPS using RTSS. Monitor stats displayed top-right, Afterburner/RTSS stats displayed bottom-right. Full-Screen Exclusive: Â±1 Hz. Full-Screen Windowed: Â±10 Hz; bad stuttering.

Arokhantos said:Noticed division windowed mode gsync works fine but then i exit check other games in windowed they don't work so something division does right but other games don't may wanna look into it, heck division does't even need gsync option enabled for windowed it will run in windowed for that game regardless
It's using Fullscreen Optimizations on Windows 10, which makes Full-Screen Windowed mode (Borderless) behave like Full-Screen Exclusive mode as far as the NVIDIA driver is concerned. This is the official list of supported games, but I believe it's been updated since then, as that list was released for 1703. What I find more surprising is that it's still working in The Division on 1803 in Borderless mode, which I have confirmed with the trial. In Watch Dogs 2, I can only get FSO working in Full-Screen Exclusive mode. It doesn't work in Borderless mode any more (it did on 1709). That's disappointing to me, because I liked that FSO in 1709 automatically upgraded most Borderless games to bypass the compositor in that pseudo-Exclusive mode, as many newer games don't have a Full-Screen Exclusive option any more.

Sora said:unless you installed a enterprise or server copy, that value defaults to an on setting.
Standard Windows 10 Professional x64. It was disabled by default.

FUZEDCREATIONS said: so why when I was on 1709 I've had no screen tearing without vsync? I hate vsync, because its literally unplayable in minecraft, vsync doesnt work in overwatch, vsync in cs:go - are you serious?
V-Sync is what prevents screen tearing. If you disable V-Sync, you allow screen tearing to happen. In Borderless or Windowed mode, the output from the game is passed through Windows' Desktop Compositor. The desktop compositor used to force triple-buffered V-Sync on all games. So "disabling" V-Sync in the game would unlock the framerate, but since those frames were being passed through the compositor, it applied triple-buffered V-Sync and prevented screen tearing - while also adding latency. Fullscreen Exclusive mode has always bypassed the compositor, so disabling V-Sync in FSE mode would always result in screen tearing. In Windows 10, Microsoft added a Fullscreen Optimization feature which enables Borderless games to bypass the compositor to reduce latency. That means they behave like Borderless games for things like fast alt-tabbing, but since they bypass the compositor, if you disable V-Sync you get screen tearing just like FSE mode. To get the old behavior back, you have to disable Fullscreen Optimizations - either per-application via its compatibility settings, or globally via the registry.
Sora said:
but on a clean install of 1803 Fullscreen Optimizations are completely disabled on my system.
Nope.
I did a clean install of 1803 as soon as the ISO was available from Microsoft. To enable Fullscreen Optimizations I had to manually edit the registry to set: "Computer\HKEY_CURRENT_USER\System\GameConfigStore\GameDVR_FSEBehaviorMode" to "0" rather than "2" which it was set as by default. A setting of 0 enables Fullscreen Optimizations, while a setting of 2 disables them. Even with Fullscreen Optimizations enabled now, I do not get screen tearing with V-Sync disabled in Borderless games, only Fullscreen Exclusive games - which has changed since 1709. In 1709 with FSO enabled, disabling V-Sync in borderless games would also allow for screen tearing.

FUZEDCREATIONS said:Hello everyone! Just bought my new Windows 10 Pro and of course, it is absolutely latest build (1803) which is the problem. When I play overwatch, cs:go, battlefield and even minecraft in fullscreen mode I have a screen tearing (btw with 300-500 fps lol) :/ I remember my 1709 build and everything was perfect there! Is there any ways to get build 1709 or somehow fix this glitch/bug? This is literally unplayable! Microsoft support just recommended me to change my screen resolution (I'm done with them). Please, help! This build of windows is bad boy :(
If you are in Fullscreen Exclusive mode, disabling V-Sync results in screen tearing. That's how it is supposed to behave, and how it has always behaved.
DaRkL3AD3R said:You can thank Microsoft for making WDDM 2.4 an utter pile of horse shit that is effectively ruining PC gaming. They're forcing all fullscreen games into their borderless windowed hack, putting them under the desktop compositor. And since that typically always meant you suffered the forced vsync, they've now hacked it so when games run in this mode, they disable the vsync altogether and ignore driver settings. This means your game is running uncapped with no vsync.
That's not what I am seeing here on 1803. On 1709 many games were being upgraded to the new presentation mode, but on a clean install of 1803 Fullscreen Optimizations are completely disabled on my system. All of the games I've tried from that list run in the old Borderless mode where triple-buffering is forced on them by the compositor. Fullscreen Optimizations should not be bypassing V-Sync controls. What they do is run in a special presentation mode that bypasses the compositor. You get the fast alt-tabbing and stability of Borderless mode, but the lower latency and V-Sync control of Exclusive mode - where disabling V-Sync will result in screen tearing. People used to running in Borderless mode and disabling V-Sync to unlock the framerate while still have triple buffering applied to the game by the compositor don't seem to like this change though, even if it lowers latency. EDIT: Even manually enabling Fullscreen Optimizations via the registry (again: they were disabled by default on a clean install of 1803 for me) does not allow for tearing in Borderless mode any more - only when the game is set to Fullscreen Exclusive mode. I preferred the old behavior since it essentially forced games that only supported Borderless mode into a pseudo-exclusive mode.

Sora said:The market consists of idiots who want cheaply made with no care for quality.
The panels they're using in the BFG Displays are very low quality. There's no way I'd consider purchasing a BFG Display over an HFR OLED TV with HDMI VRR support (which is likely to be announced ~6 months from now).

GeForce Forums

Top Communities

Users

zone74

RodriGlez said:G-Sync (Fullscreen and Windowed) works as intended on 391.35. Only if you are running Windows 10 1709. There are still issues with this driver on 1803/1809, it's just not quite as bad as anything using WDDM 2.4 or 2.5.

Sora said:unless you installed a enterprise or server copy, that value defaults to an on setting.Standard Windows 10 Professional x64. It was disabled by default.

RodriGlez said:G-Sync (Fullscreen and Windowed) works as intended on 391.35.
Only if you are running Windows 10 1709. There are still issues with this driver on 1803/1809, it's just not quite as bad as anything using WDDM 2.4 or 2.5.

Sora said:unless you installed a enterprise or server copy, that value defaults to an on setting.
Standard Windows 10 Professional x64. It was disabled by default.